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Podcast 21 – Examining the “Atkins Diet”

On Podcast 21, our brave duo Rowan and Mark dive headfirst into the ‘Atkins Diet’ and teach us how to navigate the pitfalls of a high-fat template approach to eating! Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @BellaAndDuke and make sure to join our growing Facebook community! –…

0:23 Greetings/Introduction! 2:41 Fatkins! 6:30 Do we understand ‘The Atkins Diet? 8:25 Cholesterol 15:55 Marks Fat Recap! 16:50 How does this relate to dogs? 21:50 Rowans Three Key Points! 25:11 Back to Atkins! 25:58 The three-fold issue with Atkins (In Rowan’s opinion!) 27:54 The high meat content in Bella and Duke 29:24 Dr Dom Dagostino and the benefits of raw food! 33:37 The enriched range 35:47 Raging Rowan! 36:35 Thanks and goodbye

Rowan:      So, Mark Scott, welcome to podcast 1,256,702.

Mark:         It feels it.

Rowan:      Oh Darling. Well actually a podcast number 21 aligned feeling effervescent. How are you?

Mark:         I’m very good. And I believe you are Rowan Sampson.

Rowan:      I am. All day.

Mark:         All day long. How are you?

Rowan:      Awesome. Thank you, Mark. How are you? How are you feeling post jet lag?

Mark:         I’m feeling very, very good. I took that CBD oil like you said, and yeah, it works a world of wonders.

Rowan:      Have you rebooted?

Mark:         Almost. I actually slept eight and a half hours two days ago, which I have not done for probably six months.

Rowan:      That’s astonishing.

Mark:         Yeah, it’s brilliant. So I actually felt really, really tired when I woke up. [laughs]

Rowan:      [inaudible]

Mark:         Well, assistant is the doctor happy. I forget his name. I remember him as Doctor Happy, on a podcast. And he was talking about, now that he’s happy and gets in a lot of meditation, he’s an hour and a half a day in meditation.

Rowan:      OK.

Mark:         And because of that he’s actually getting away with between three and five hours sleep. And the reason he believes it, and I don’t know if this is true or not, but the reason that he believes it is, because he’s practiced meditation, his brain’s got a lot quieter through the day. Because obviously when you meditate you realize how often you just think, think, think, think, think, think, think. And because he’s actually now a trained his brain not to think, think, think, think, think, think — yet he doesn’t believe he’s using as much energy. So I don’t know if it’s true or not. Just thought it was an interesting fact for the day.

Rowan:      I’ve got some fairly strong views on that, but I’m not going to detract from our podcast. And I think… [laughs]

Mark:         That’s fine. “Mark, stay on path.”

Rowan:      I’m simply going with the feedback from some very grumpy listener who said they wanted to know straight away what what we’re going to talk about. So I’m going to do that. And then I’m coming back and I’ll tell you, I’ll share with you what I think about that sleep thing. So Mark, what are we talking about this week?

Mark:         Fatkins. The Fatkins, or the Atkins Diet.

Rowan:      The Atkins Diet. Exactly. Because it segues perfectly, in fact, I’m not going to use the word segue for the whole of this podcast because I realized I’ve used it a lot.

Mark:         That segues nicely.

Rowan:      So if I’m going to say this is the perfect sequitur… No. I’m going to say that “it leads in” or it “dovetails.” For those viewers are watching on video, they can see me doing a really camp kind of arrow movement. But yeah, because that’s quite topical and I’m actually we’re really pro fat at the moment.

But just going back to the sleep thing, Mark, I think there’s a huge difference between getting away with and actually thriving. And the perfect example would be dogs can get away with eating kibble because they’re very robust, but they don’t actually thrive.

I think he doesn’t need as much sleep, when obviously you don’t have all of this background noise going on in your brain, because that’s part of dreaming is filtering through it, but my gut feel on this — gut-brain connection — is that we definitely made more than three hours to thrive.

Mark:         Absolutely. So the Arcadian rhythm…

Rowan:      Rhythm.

Mark:         Arcadian rhythm, sorry. [laughs] I’ll start again.

Rowan:      [laughs]

Mark:         There’s Arcadian rhythm. I saw somebody comment that their dog’s not sleeping as much at the moment, and somebody said, oh, it’s because he’s getting lighter outside. And, of course. In my house, my bedroom, where the magic happens, I’ve got all…

Rowan:      I can’t believe you committed that to celluloid. [laughs] Oh my goodness. I just had a full body frisson. [laughs]

Mark:         Well, I back out all the binds as much as possible, because in the north it’s just so few hours in the dark and it dawned on me that —

Rowan:      Oh, I like what you’ve done there.

Mark:         [laughs] Thank you.

It dawned on me that when a dog is in the summer, if it’s in a room that didn’t have curtains or black outs, of course it’s going to wake up earlier when there’s more light streaming through the windows.

Rowan:      Of course.

Mark:         And in the winter when it’s dark out, it’s probably more likely to sleep. So if you find that your dog’s waking up early in the morning, maybe try darkening the room a little bit and you might find that helps with the dog staying asleep for longer, but also feeding it last minute at night before you go to bed will also help with hungry pangs and stuff like that. Because — and we’ll talk about protein in a moment — because obviously that will help the dog get through the night without being hungry, without being woken up by light. So just a little trick to try out.

But we’re talking about the Atkins Diet. And interestingly, I did the Atkins Diet, I want to say about 15 years ago.

Rowan:      Didn’t we all? I mean, it was the thing.

Mark:         It was, wasn’t it? And it was ironic because Mr Atkins himself was a rather chubby man to say the least.

Rowan:      He was not optimal body composition for health.

Mark:         He wasn’t, he wasn’t. “Do as I say…”

So what was interesting was, is I did find that I did well on it, but I didn’t do amazingly well. And I’d love to delve into your thoughts on this because I think a lot of people maybe misunderstood the Atkins Diet.

Rowan:      You know, this is… Wow. I mean, this is a huge topic. So I’m going to try and stay on topic. The Atkins Diet was way ahead of anything, and defied a lot of the studies at the time. Now, he was so, so close to actually stumbling onto gold — so close, and I can explain why.

The issue was, there was two or three things that they omitted and as soon as you address those, suddenly not only do people start burning body fat, and this is what we focus on in the modern sensei practice, is that we get people super lean, but it’s whilst improving their health. And this is what a lot of people don’t realize is that they actually go — oh, I’m going to lose weight first and just feel really good, and then I’ll worry about my health.

And I actually, it’s like, if you actually do this healthily, it will support your hormones. It will get you leaner quicker, and all of your health markers will improve at the same time. So like for instance, there is a way you can eat an absolute massive amount of really good fats — and that in itself is a topic — and improve your cholesterol. Biochemically. I’ve tested people before they’ve been on our diet. I’ve tested them afterwards. All of the cholesterol markers have improved by like 70 percent.

Mark:         And with the cholesterol… Because there’s a lot, we’re going to take it in bite-sized chunks. So, cholesterol…

Again, I’m going to do it in “Mark’s language.”

Rowan:      Do it. Do it. Let’s do it. This is really exciting.

Mark:         So when I look at cholesterol — they say there’s good cholesterol, there’s bad cholesterol, but now they’ve discovered there’s good-bad cholesterol and bad-bad cholesterol.

Now in my understanding what cholesterol actually does. Cholesterol is, it’s like if you were to take olive oil and drop it on a bit of water, you know you get like a bubble of oil that’s on the top.

Rowan:      Yeah.

Mark:         That’s in effect what cholesterol is. It flows around the arteries and it helps one, smooth out the edges of the arteries, because if you cut your skin, it scabs over, which is great and it’s amazing when it does, but you don’t want that to happen inside your arteries because it starts to scab over it’s going to block your arteries. So that’s a real no-no.

Now my understanding is if I were standing on a bridge and I was to drop leaves on the water, they would be like the LDL cholesterol, and they would then move to the side of the river, not smooth the arteries, and then the HDL, which is what the class as the good cholesterol, is more like a log and if you drop that in the middle of the river, it would continue going down the river, i.e. going round the arteries, keeping things going.

But you need both. That right?

Rowan:      Yes. All of these things work in balance. And I’m keen to avoid going right into — I love your analogy by the way — the actual culprit is two things. One, there’s a really rubbish study from I think the fifties, called the “China study.” And on the back of that, this guy willfully — and he looks like he did willfully — misinterpret all the data to prove a theory he was positing. So he willfully misinterpreted the data and then a generation, or three generations of people have made — and this China Study keeps coming back up and it’s basically about eating grains, not eating fats, da-da-da, and also it spawned a whole generation of vegetarianism, which I support if people want to do it for ethical reasons, but lots of people became vegetarian thinking it was going to radically improve their health on the back of this study that’s actually incorrect.

So going back to the to the first bit. We’ve got, there’s a few more different types of cholesterol than that. You’ve got LDL, HDL. The one you really want to avoid is the super small fluffy molecules called VLDL, which is very low density lipoprotein. And they can now test. In fact, one of the people I’m working with. In fact we might be able to get a blood spot test, literally a blood spot test for Bella and Duke customers, which they can do in the post, which would give these three markers. I know there’s a company developing it and it might be out in the next month book.

But going back to where we started on this a little bit as an Atkins. What is wrong with it and why it was nearly good. And I guess just to put a little marker in it. Funnily enough, lots of people this week said one thing they would like to see more of is some human health. So I guess we can do the human health part and then look how it might apply to dogs.

Mark:         Yeah.

Rowan:      That works with you?

Mark:         Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So just that little fluffy one? The VLDL. So what, where would that come from? What would cause that?

Rowan:      Right. This is where it gets really interesting. This is where the rubber hits the road. So do you want me to cover the Atkins, why it was nearly there, what it needs to do to change it to make it as —

Mark:         Yeah. You know me. I like to jump backwards and forwards. So I think let’s do that, and then jump back into the Adkins, absolutely.

Rowan:      OK. So realistically all cholesterol in theory starts off as pretty much good cholesterol. Let’s just pretend that that actually holds tight. We could be really pedantic and scientific about it. We don’t need to be. Let’s just say cholesterol is like a brand new grass fed, beautiful organic beef burger.

Mark:         OK.

Rowan:      It has the potential to deliver nutrients to you. Now, cholesterol is actually our friend. Why? 60 percent, more or less of our brains by weight is fat, and of that, the majority, let’s say 80 percent is cholesterol. This is where I don’t go into a rage about statins for the moment.

Mark:         I purposely didn’t bring it up.

Rowan:      It’s raging internally. Anyway, that’s gone. That’s in the past Rowan. Leave it.

So we need cholesterol. It actually is the basis for nearly every single hormone in our bodies. There’s basis for all of our steroid hormones. It’s what we make our estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, our cortisol out pregnanolone, our progesterone. All of it is made from basically three things and it’s, the majority of his cholesterol, the next part is vitamin D and then there’s some bile co-factors which come out of the liver. And then you find it all up — hey presto — what do we have? We’ve got this amazing hormone.

So going back to our burger analogy, this burger, it’s coming towards us. It’s going to deliver nutrition. It’s going to be tasty, it’s going to do its job. And then somebody goes — oh, I’ll do that for you. Puts it on the barbecue and burns it.

Mark:         OK.

Rowan:      And this is what happens to the fats in our body. The fats, they’re all ready, they’re all ready to do us a great job. We’ve taken this Amiga three from algae oil, from salmon oil or whichever, and if it were really exciting our brain’s going — oh, I’m going to make all these amazing hormones.

And then it gets exposed to sugar.

Mark:         Sugar.

Rowan:      And sugar, way too strong a fuel source for the cholesterol, and effectively it corrupts it. So imagine our cholesterol is like this burger that’s floating through us, all this nutrition, and it gets burned and then it can’t be used. So what you’ve got is something which is going to create inflammation and stick to the walls of the arteries.

Mark:         So… Bringing all that together. Good fats are brilliant by themselves, but the minute you start introducing sugars…

Rowan:      And this is why so many people fall down on the bulletproof diet. Because basically the bulletproof diet has, 80, 90 percent of it is really, really good. If used appropriately. We can cover that another time or whenever you want. But as soon as you introduce sugars into a high fat environment, then basically you’re just creating a whole fat bomb and you’re making bad fats and you’re telling the body to store all the sugar as fat and it creates lots of triglycerides.

Mark:         So if I relate this to then to dog food, because we are a little bit doggy orientated…

Rowan:      Yes.

Mark:         Got cook fats in some of these products, and their adding sugars. Surely, I mean, it’s a double bloody whammy.

Rowan:      Oh, absolutely. And this is my kibble kills. This is why processing kills on a couple of fronts. One is carbohydrate content. Dogs can’t digest it. Two is, the processing of it, whether it’s carbohydrate, whether it’s protein or whether it’s fats. The fact that he’s exposed to such high heat for such a long time creates these advanced glycated end products known as ages. So, ignoring whether it’s fats or whichever.

But the fact that you’ve got carbohydrate and fat together means the carbohydrate is going to corrupt the fat yet further. Now, in kibble that’s a bit of a — well, does it matter anyway — because the fat has already been corrupted because it’s been cooked too look dadio —

Mark:         Yep.

Rowan:      And he’s already rancid and/or oxygenated and/or burned. So you’re getting potentially a quadruple whammy.

Mark:         So this is, this is common knowledge now, isn’t it? I mean, in the science world?

Rowan:      Pretty much. But what we’ve seen, like for instance, our approach, is fairly unique. I mean, I was surprised that people are still catching up on how to apply it. Because lots of people have got this concept of — actually facts are good, like the Paleo template and lots of people saying — hey, we need the olive oils because that’s Amiga three, we need some nuts for the Amiga six and we need lots of wild core Alaskan Salmon, because that’s giving us loads of Omega threes. So fats are good. Lots of people have got that.

Mark:         “Fats are good. Fats are good. Ebeneezer. Fats are good.” Sorry.

Rowan:      That’s because you’re just a raver.

Mark:         Ooh ooh…

Rowan:      What they’ve not tended to apply, and what I’m not seeing yet, is them avoiding mixing those fats with a carbohydrate. So, it’s funny because I went around and I kind of interviewed a lot of people who are on the bulletproof course, because I noticed that out of like 150 people, there were like seven who were rockstar super athlete lean, and then the rest of the people were kind of struggling and they’re all saying, well these fats get you really lean. And it’s because they were mixing the fats and carbohydrates.

Mark:         But just jumping on that. Because obviously now, I was in the States last week, at a conference in Denver. And to be fair, I went off the rail a little bit because your at conferences all day. You’re in America. It’s very difficult to —

Rowan:      Stop talking yourself into a corner, Mark.

Mark:         But what was really, really interesting was, because obviously have had a really lean, tight, fighting machine cuisine, I’ve been really, really good for the most part this year during the wealth in —

Rowan:      And you’re looking good on it. You can accept that compliment.

Mark:         So when it came back, put on like 10 pounds and it felt like I had. But obviously with the flight, I came back literally half a pound. And that was me after eating, I did eat the pizza. I did have a few chips here and there. But, and then she came back, and I was like, half a pound. And… After my flight, you know, I was six pounds over. But wanted to get rid of that water formation, from the flight. I was surprised.

So when you’re body’s working right. It can actually handle these rancid and not-great ingredients for a short period of time and actually knows not to absorb it, I felt. I thought my body does actually dealt with it and got rid of it. Had I continued to do it will be a different story.

Rowan:      Yeah. Yeah. I mean what we’re doing now is, we’ve kind of moved the game on, and we’re talking about how resilient are you, and what is your base metabolic rate? Which are slightly different but massively relevant.

Mark:         Yeah. So what I was thinking, once you get your body is working the way it should and you’re getting the right fats, you’re getting all the right stuff, because I obviously follow the bulletproof diet in many ways, that once you’re there, actually, it’s a lot harder to put the weight back on again. Even if it to take a couple days. Where if somebody else was there, maybe not following the same protocol as me, will more likely to put weight on faster, and take longer to get rid of it.

Rowan:      OK. So I think we’ve got three points to cover here on that, is that, actually people, if you eat fats, good fats, non-inflammatory fats, so peanuts, the worst fat on the planet, roasted peanuts with salt, just cut the middleman out, hit yourself in the chest with a crow bar. You’re done.

Mark:         So even in a nut, apparently.

Rowan:      No, it’s a legume.

Mark:         A legume.

Rowan:      Yep. A legume. It’s leguminous.

Mark:         So the guy said to me. Are you here for leisure? And I’m like, for what? Leisure? Oh, leisure, aye. I am.

Rowan:      If you are doing that, your body is automatically. It’s almost like this is the way I explain it to patients, and clients, and whichever, is that your body is a beautiful hybrid engine and it can run on either basically petrol or electric. Petrol is glucose. Now in all of its forms. Whether that’s fruit, whether that sugars, whether that’s whichever. The other side of the hybrid engine is electric. That’s super clean fuel. That’s ketones, that comes from your body going — hey, I’ve got loads of fats. I can just burn them. Now you’re only going to get into ketosis if you having lots of fat, right? In the absence of sugar. Because otherwise you’re telling your body, going — hey, winter’s coming, let’s store everything. Think grizzlies in the middle of the river eating loads of salmon than going and having loads of sugar from berries. Big fat grizzly.

And this is where the Fatkins fell down, going back.

So, first of all — you. Basically, your kind of like super clean eating. You go and you have some rubbish for a little bit. You body just looks at that as a carb reload and if anything, it will ramp your metabolism back up if you’re only doing it for a couple of days.

Mark:         Yeah, that’s what happened. Yeah.

Rowan:      Yeah. And, people normally, especially people doing a lot of sport, benefit from that because it takes pressure off them, off the… That’s a whole other chat.

So fats, if they’re good fats, make all your hormones, give you good cholesterol, cholesterol gets corrupted by sugars and fast processed carbohydrates. The fats themselves need to be non-rancid. OK. Did you know you only have a certain amount of enzymes which convert Omega three and Omega six into the usable forms.

Mark:         So how do you replenish them?

Rowan:      Well, your body’s only got a certain amount at a time.

Mark:         Oh, OK, so it does replenish you, but… So once it’s used up for that period of time…

Rowan:      People often say — oh, I’ve had a load of Omega six, and I’m going to have loads of Omega three to balance it out. It doesn’t work like that because it’s almost like you’ve only got so many trains leaving the station. So if you fill that train up with roasted peanuts, there’s going to be no room for all the wild Atlantic salmon oil on it.

Mark:         Gotcha.

Rowan:      OK. So you want to talk about Atkins? Or are we just binning that off?

Mark:         No, now I think Artikov’s going to combat Atkins right now, so, from Atkins, then, it obviously disappointed a lot of scientists, because I saw obviously results. But the work necessarily where Atkins stopped those results were coming from. But I remember a study that… You know the high tensity training, interval training? Hit. As they call it.

Rowan:      Yes. Yep, yep.

Mark:         We came across that because they were watching sprinters and couldn’t believe how muscly they became.

So it was like they watched something, and then go — ah, there must be science behind — find out what the science is behind that. And I think with the Adkins Diet, OK, I might get slated a little bit. But it drew a lot of attention, which is the benefits that we have now, especially in our own dog food.

Rowan:      Well, he was so close to it really working. The issue was three-fold. In my humble opinion. If somebody would say to me, go — why didn’t it work properly? Really, really consistently well? — and the issue is three fold. One is the amount of protein that people were allowed to eat. Too much protein, even if it’s really good, quality is not good for you. Why? Because your body starts converting it to sugars.

So you’re eating all this fat, but then you’re creating in your body sugars from the protein. So moderate to smaller amounts of protein would have been way more applicable, but he was basically saying, eat as much protein as you want, stick some cream on it.

The second reason it didn’t work is they never really focused on the quality of protein. So if you’re eating and you go — hey, I’m having a massive steak dinner every night for the rest of my life — and basically you have this massive steak dinner and it’s been absolutely chock a block full of hormones, and the chock a block full of grains, all of which are really inflammatory, well, surprise, surprise, that’s going to be you too.

And the third thing is that the fats, they didn’t focus on the quality of the fats. So quite often you’d see him and he’d be going — I feel great — and he’d just be having loads of cream.

Mark:         And cooking the steak in sunflower oil.

Rowan:      Well, this is it. Bad fats and… Absolutely. The cream, if it’s not organic and it’s full of hormones, will, you’re going to be full of cheap hormones that they’d been feeding into the cattle.

Mark:         So bringing that point back then about too much protein, back to Bella and Duke. I’ve seen with the raw dog food it does have a high meat content.

Rowan:      Yes.

Mark:         So how does that work with dogs? Or is it slightly different for dogs?

Rowan:      It’s slightly different for dogs because dogs are not meant to run on a glucose metabolism.

Mark:         OK. So their body deals with this differently.

Rowan:      Exactly. Dogs are actually meant to be on a pure ketosis metabolism and they convert it as they need it into whichever substrate is required. So for dogs it’s slightly different.

What we have seen however, and Rodney Habib talks about this, I don’t know if Peter Dobias does, and it’s something we’re kind of working on in the background without revealing behind the curtain, like the Wizard of Oz, is how in cancer studies actually dialing down the protein ever so slightly — and this is the key part — is not because the protein is damaging, but because you want a higher fat content, really, really worked. Why? Because cancer for the most part, feeds off either (a) sugars or (b) some, one or two, amino acids, L-glutamine being one. Why? Because it’s the most readily convertible to glucose, which feeds tumors.

So in the human world, there’s a guy called, um, Dr Dom D’agostino — I don’t know why I looked out the window. It’s not like he’s around at my house right now.

Mark:         [laughs] You locked in the cell. He’s in a Spanish cell.

Rowan:      Dom, I’ll be with you in five minutes, keep eating fats. [laughs]

So, he’s literally focusing on what’s feeding cancers. And we just know that by getting people into ketosis, i.e. where they’re burning fat as a fuel rather than sugar, so you’re just staying in electric rather than petrol, is smashing cancer tumors, and improving their recovery from chemotherapy.

Mark:         So what we’re saying then in a nutshell is raw feeding is great on many levels, whether you use ours, you do your own, or other brands, because the body’s just working the way it’s meant to; it’s not getting hyped up on sugars, it’s not converting the fats — the fats into good fats into bad fats — there’s a whole heap of reasons there, isn’t there? And when you describe it the way you have over the last whatever, half an hour —

Rowan:      [laughs] Is that right?

Mark:         Get to the point man.

Rowan:      [laughs] I’m done. I’m cooked. I’m baked. Put a fork in me.

Mark:         No, that’s good. Because I think sometimes we dance around and we don’t get to the bottom of it. So I like to really understand it. Because I think knowledge is power. And you hear all this hype, and you hear all this stuff. But once you actually really understand it and the science behind it, I mean, it really helped me understand things a lot better.

So if you don’t understand it, you just don’t remember it for one thing, and you leave it. So it’s good. It’s really, really good. Really brilliant.

Rowan:      There you go. Are we kind of done on this? Do you want to ask me any more questions or do we come back to this at a point where before people start going, oh my goodness, give me a piece of toast.

Mark:         No need. I think that, I mean we can obviously come back to it. I think all paths, all roads in nutrition come almost back to the same place. You know, we can toss it up in many different ways, but it’s not a complicated concept.

Rowan:      I agree. Very few of the concepts are complicated. A lot of them are very challenging to current perception, and some of them are actually quite broad in the fact that there’s a lot of little moving parts, but not know a single part of that is — oh my goodness, you need to be a rocket scientist to understand it. What you do need to do is have all the bits in the right order. So you can go — ah, now I see, and it all flows together and it gives us a picture of health.

Mark:         Absolutely. That’s big. And I think once you’ve done the journey yourself, as I have, and you feel the difference in yourself, you go, the dogs are going to be feeling the same as well. Just a the dog’s blood test done yesterday which I sent over to you and will describe that off air, but maybe come back to that on a future podcast because it’s really interesting. The results came back pretty good for a dog that was 11 years on kibble and crap kibble. And not such a thing as good kibble. I’m sure some of these kibble companies out there will say “that’s not true.” Yep.

But at the end of the day, the proof’s in the pudding, the reviews of people saying just how good their dogs are and more, that’s the encouraging thing. And it’s the same with the Atkins Diet — you got me saying “fatkins” over Atkins Diet.

Rowan:      I never called it that off-air, Mark. I’m denying that. I’ll let the listeners decide who’s telling fibs or not.

Mark:         Kudos to that guy who tries something different. He got almost there. Brilliant. We wouldn’t be where we are today. And on that note, I’m going to segue — woohoo!

Rowan:      Ooh — I got all the way through without saying it. OK.

Mark:         I was going to say, we’re bringing out the enriched range next week.

Rowan:      Oh, I was going to ask you about this.

Mark:         So the enriched range is finally coming out. We’ve been doing a few tests and really looking forward to that. Because I’m putting my dog straight on it. She’s a bit older, she’s got a little bit of arthritis and this is going to help with inflammatory issues. We’ve worked on it together with Rowan and the team. So, looking forward to that, and I know there’s quite a lot of people doing it. We now got more. We ran out of stock of the treats. Got some more in now. So that’s exciting. That’s all there. And yeah, that’s the roll out for this week as well.

Rowan:      Awesome. What I was going to say is to be kind to Mr, or was it Dr Atkins —

Mark:         Doctor.

Rowan:      — is that ultimately, he did the very best that he could at that time. And it’s much like… I often say this — it’s like a weather report, and he gave us the best weather report he could with the data available.

It’s only now where it’s like saying — oh, my original mobile phone, it was absolutely crap. Well, no it wasn’t. It was absolutely spectacular. It was groundbreaking. Now we’ve got these. We’ve got more, more information, more computing power in these than they had in the moon rocket when it first landed. And when it landed second as well, and third.

So my point is, it’s evolved and we are where we are and right now the food we’re putting together is what we believe to be the very best for pet health.

Mark:         I love disruptors. I love people that disrupt things. I love people who are mixing it up. We needed it in the dog food industry. I love it. I love it. And we’re going to piss a few people off on the way. I’m sure Atkins did.

Rowan:      You love doing that, as well.

Mark:         Yeah. I just… There’s a saying — there’s lots of rules out there and I don’t know if you heard the word “brule,” it’s a bullshit rule and there’s too many of those in our world. You know?

Rowan:      Yeah. We were contacted this week, and I think you might be aware of this, by a lady, a professional practitioner of sorts, requiring some kind of scientific proof about what we were claiming or discussing or whichever.

Now firstly, none of this is — we’re not claiming, we’re discussing it, as we would do if we were down the pub eating crisps and peanuts.

The other thing is — excuse me, all of this is based on the latest research and guesstimates, informed guesstimates, but before you start challenging us, whilst we’re being disruptive, I would like to see some proof for the utter shite that you as a vet profession have been propagating for the last x years, was killing dogs. So don’t tell me, while you’re feeding a dog or rancid old burger — ooh, I’d like some proof why this doesn’t work.

No no no, I’m sorry. Stop. That’s angry Rowan.

Mark:         In your humble opinion.

Rowan:      In my considered humble opinion.

Mark:         Well thank you very much.

Rowan:      You can cut all the anger bit out at the end. I like to go out on a high note.

Mark:         I like anger, anger, anger management. Right buddy.

Rowan:      All right dude. I’m wishing you really well. As ever, a pleasure. I’m sure we’re going to have lots of questions on this. Please do ask questions. Because I think this is our first dive into the topic, and frankly, we’re going to almost need to do a little webinar series to get owners feeling really good and get the dogs feeling really good. Wouldn’t that be a great picture of all like with owners at Blondes in the Castle or whichever, Canines in the Castle, with loads of people going, me and my dog are feeling awesome.

Mark:         Well, we had discussed that online course, but we’re not bringing it up here.

Rowan:      [laughs]

Mark:         Cool.

Rowan:      It was a pleasure, my friend.

Mark:         OK.

Rowan:      Take care. See you next week.

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