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Podcast 12 – Could your dog live to 30 years old?

This week Mark and Rowan talk about increasing longevity of dogs through nutrition, turning off the MTOR which is responsible for replicating both good and bad cells through Ketosis and high-fat diet.

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Podcast 12 – Could your dog live to 30 years old

Rowan: Mark, welcome to podcast number 12. We are recording.

What exciting stuff have we’ve got written on the board this week?

Mark: Can you see it?

Rowan: I can see it. It says — could your dog live to 30? Albeit the three, zero, is slightly cut off.

Mark: Oh there you go.

Rowan: Do you know what. It actually looked like, “Could your dog live to 303” — which is the more exciting.

Mark: It is. Well maybe I’ll…

Rowan: Oh look at that. And your handsome face is in the shot as well. You’re looking very slim, Mark.

Mark: I’m still on my species-specific diet for a human being.

Rowan: And in that blue v-neck you look quite veterinary.

Mark: You don’t want me out doing any operations on your doggie, that’s for sure.

Rowan: Kidneys?

Mark: In a pie. [laughs]

Rowan: [laughs] So, welcome. Tell me, we’ve had a bit of an exciting week here on the Bella and Duke. And I’ve got to say I was extremely envious. I welcome that jealousy to see you with a bit of a hero of mine, Rodney Habib. So why don’t you tell me all about your weekend and the exciting stuff that came after that?

Mark: Yes. While I was at the Natural Canine Care in Glasgow, which a kind lady, Sarah, had put together. They’re speaking was Rodney and Karen Becker. So it was a great…

Rowan: She’s awesome as well.

Mark: Yeah. They’re just unbelievable. So much nice.

And our friend and adviser Wendy was there as well and . . . [02:06] because that was brilliant. So Wendy — an hour and 15 minutes I think of just a wealth of knowledge there. So that was brilliant. So really, really good just hang out. Hang out with like minded people.

Yeah, loads of information came about from . . . [02:23]

Not just doodles, but actually useful information.

Rowan: So what were your… Oh, and just on that note, I’ve got a fabulous call booked in with Wendy tomorrow because we’re going to go through and stress test. Do you remember we were talking about quite a few of the facts and that we wanted some clinical corroboration?

Mark: Yes.

Rowan: As soon as our lovely vet was back from holiday, we’re going to speak to her; that’s what we’re going to do. And then we can —

Mark: Fantastic.

Rowan: — update our readers, our listeners with that extra layer of vet knowledge, once I’ve had that meeting, so I’ll be reporting back next week.

Mark: Brilliant. So it just keeps on the right track and that was the whole point with Bella in Duke, to have your expertise, to have Wendy’s expertise, to have they experienced at Well Feeders as well, and basically Avery and Tony as well for sourcing the ingredients so we can always make sure that everything that we decided, everyone ticked off, and that was a fundamental part of Bella and Duke to make sure we steer the course. And as new information comes out there, we adapt to it.

Rowan: Exactly.

On that note, if I can interject, that’s what makes it a holistic approach.

Mark: Absolutely.

Rowan: There’s no such thing as one expert. It’s a bunch of people actually brainstorming it and wondering if one theory is going to be applicable to something else. So together we’re stronger, as we always keep saying.

Mark: Absolutely. And I think that’s the same when you’re with — if you’re taking an accountant practice, you’re much better off having an accountancy practice with many different skill sets, because even just studying tax alone, nevermind, you know, all the rest of it, RND credits and all this kinds of stuff; if you’re a sole accountant, you just haven’t got time to go off and specialize, and get good at all the specific niche — and that’s good to have with this.

Rowan: That’s probably the least sexy analogy you’ve ever drawn, Mark.

Mark: Well I am in business.

Rowan: [laughs] That was responsible and grown up.

Mark: I couldn’t have done the brothel thing — yeah, you’ve got to have this…

Rowan: [laughs]

Mark: Is that . . . Mark.

Rowan: Yeah. I don’t know which one you get more screwed on.

Mark: [laughs]

Rowan: Next.

So what were the top three topics which you covered this week?

Mark: Well, I think what stood out to me was, speaking with Rodney, was just how much we’re on the same path — with our latest research, what you’ve been doing, especially from the longevity.

And I put that figure up at 30 years, which I think — we’ve got used to dogs dying at such a young, young age. We think 15, 16, 17 is a good age. But what happens if it was 30? And what’s the reasons for not going into 30, and really understanding that? It was just brilliant to see somebody else thinking on the same path and actually coming to the same conclusion as this.

Things like understanding the MTO, which I know you can go in — I don’t want that throughout this — my understanding of it was that the issue for humans and for dogs is cancer.

Rowan: Yes.

Mark: A big issue. And an MTO is a bit like a photocopier. It’ll photocopy a good cells, but it’ll also photocopy bad cells.

So if you have cancerous cells itself is going on there and I’ll just keep replicate, replicate, replicate. And that’s also to do with — and you’ll know this one — the IGF-1 gene.

Rowan: Yes. Insulin-like growth factor one.

Mark: That’s the bad boy.

Which is a real problem for big breeds. We’ll get into that a little later on.

So that was interesting because if you can control the MTO, the photocopier — and I’m bust to say is in this full science thing, so bear with me — if we can control the MTO, we can control the cancer cells being replicated, in a nutshell.

Rowan: Yeah.

Mark: Because there’s no reason why you have to keep producing cells if your body can repair the cells. Which, from my understanding and what you’ve told me in the past as well, is exactly what our body is designed to do. And the reason it doesn’t do it is because we feed ourselves and our dogs way too much, way too often.

Rowan: Oh, Mark, I actually confessed to having a full body frisson to hearing you talk about this. This is the type of thing I am so excited about because — yes, we’ve got to deal with illness; yes, we’ve got to deal with leaky gut; yes, we deal with auto immune disease. But that’s always like correcting the steering wheel after the car’s started to skid off the road. Once we’ve started doing that and we’ve got the car on the straight path, basically it’s just a — how do we keep it running in the right direction for as long as it will go? — and this it.

For me, you’ve encapsulated that perfectly. It’s basically why are we accepting 10 years, 12 years, 13 years as normal? And thinking 17 years is good? We need to rip it all up. We need to rip up the model and say — look, we should be gunning for, and as humans, being a centenarian, accidents aside, should not be — hey, you’re worthy of a telegram for from the queen. We should all be getting there. Because genetically we’re capable of doing it.

Mark: Absolutely.

Rowan: So it’s about living your potential.

Mark: So here’s the question, right? Coming away from that. Simply, even if you just follow these simple rules of restricted calorific intake, i.e. reduce how much you’re eating by 25%, they reckon the study showed that you could live for and extra two years as a dog, and a higher-fat diet, you could massively increase (1) your health span and (2) your life span. But more importantly, I think if we can get your health span to match your lifespan — and I’d like for you to explain this and what do I mean by this — that is the Golden Goose. That’s the bit where I’d like to see Bella and Duke being, sitting is where we go. Not only you’re healthy, but you’re healthy to the end of your life, your natural life.

Rowan: Yeah. Do I really need to explain that? That’s… You’ve done that perfectly.

Mark: Well I think…

Rowan: I think I’m out of a job. I’m leaving.

Mark: But I think if we explain what… I mean, when I talk about health span, because we see people that were talking about that, but there’s a lot of people going through life right now as humans for example, on statins, and all this other stuff.

Rowan: Don’t get me on that Mark. I’m having such a good time.

Mark: But that’s an example of — drugs are keeping you going because of the food that you’re eating. Not everybody. I get that. And there is genetic stuff, but the vast majority of these issues are food. Like if you get lots of headaches, probably food related.

I’ve discussed with you — skin issues and stuff like that. It’s going to be food issues. Nine times out of ten it’s going to be feeling. Now, there will be other environmental factors, of course there is.

Rowan: Yep.

Mark: But if you don’t have the fundamental nutrition, the pillar of health starting with your nutrition, then you haven’t got a chance in hell of the other stuff being able to fight it off.

So whether it’s WiFi, whether it’s toxins, whether it’s metals in the water, bloody blah-blah, stress, all these things — if you haven’t got your nutrition right from the start, you might as well be doing the hundred meter run with two left legs. It’s just not great.

Rowan: Yeah. I would say for about 75 percent, so 7 and a half out of the 10 people I see — don’t ask me which half — that nutrition is at least 85 percent of the marks. So quite often we talk about — and people love, and I’ve been guilty of this myself, and I use the word “guilt,” there’s no right or wrong, it’s just the reality — talking about a syndrome.

Whether it’s adrenal dysfunction or adrenal fatigue, as they used to call it, whether it’s a thyroid issue, whether it’s an autoimmune condition, nearly every time, it is largely — and by largely I mean by far and away, predominantly food driven — but it doesn’t mean that food is the only part of that jigsaw, but it’s the largest in key part of the jigsaw.

So it can be parasites; it can be bacteria; in dogs it can be over-vaccination, as we know that over vaccination is worse than no vaccination. It can lead to [inaudible][11:33] It could be heavy metal poisoning, which you’ve already talked about.

But from the majority of cases it is food driven. That’s where we can get all the easy marks and then concern ourselves with WiFi and Bluetooth exposure and electromagnetic frequencies, etc. That’s what you do when you’re healthy and you go — OK, I want to go pick up the others; I want to get my doctorate in health.

Mark: So if we want to control this — going back to this MTO — from what Rodney said and what you’ve said in the past is sugars, for example, glucose, they really kick MTO into hyper-mode.

Rowan: Yeah.

Mark: Is that correct?

Rowan: Well, if we look at it, we do have two fuel systems. We’re like a beautiful hybrid engine where we’ve got petrol and we’ve got electric. Now really, we want to be in electric, green mode, fat burning, the majority of the time. Why? Because ketones, which are the byproducts of burning fat, are far cleaner, far less inflammatory, and it also means that we’re voiding ourselves of toxins because our body stores toxins in the fat cells.

So we’ve got this constant… Well, you know, that’s our big fuel battery. And then glucose, sugars, fructose, starchy carbohydrates — they’re more like throwing paper on the fire. They’re a lot less clean fuel source, but they’re very good in certain times — fight or flight.

So if we need to escape a tiger, then really we need a bit of glucose to run away. So having a very little bit is great in our diet. But unfortunately in the modern western diet, the majority of it both for humans and for dogs is driven by glucose as opposed to by fats.

And if we look in the natural environment, the one in which we evolved, we’re not surrounded by vats of honey and berries. Those are very seasonal. Getting honey is quite a dangerous thing — because they weren’t in hives; you would have to climb a tree; you would have to smoke the bees out — there’s high accident risk, if you look in native cultures, which associated with harvesting honey. It’s a once-a-year thing. It’s not something in natural fuel source.

Animal fats, organ meats, oils, those kind of things, tallow — that’s a lot more natural.

Mark: What’s tallow?

Rowan: Tallow is the fats from animals.

Mark: Oh OK. That’s it.

So, what was interesting… And I threw this question at Rodney when I was there, because also in… There’s two things with highly processed dog food. Now in America, they’ve pushed for this. In America, now, they have to show with the carbohydrates level.

Rowan: Yeah.

Mark: — in dog food. They don’t in the UK.

Rowan: — yet.

Mark: Yet. So that’s the one thing I’m keen to start pushing and make that happen. So I’m going to start on a little mini campaign for that.

Rowan: Let’s do it.

Mark: That’s one of my goals.

The other thing was that I asked him about pea protein.

Rowan: Oh.

Mark: And I asked him, I said — I’ve looked at some dog food companies, and I’m not going to mention names — you know, who you are — who actually put in pea protein in there to raise the protein level. Right?

Rowan: Oh…

Mark: And I asked Rodney, I said — how does the body metabolize that? Because it looks like he’s got certainly amino acids that you would need, and that was part of the reason to put in.

But then he came back with a fundamental reply. He said — 41 percent of pea protein is starch.

Rowan: Yeah.

Mark: What happens with starch?

Rowan: Well, starch basically is converted to sugars, so you get a massive insulin spike, so you’re back on the roller coaster.

Now, there’s two things with that, and this is why I don’t like synthetic or overly processed proteins, for one of the many reasons.

One is, they are present in unnatural amounts. So people turn around and go — oh, eating a raw diet makes my dog aggressive.

No it doesn’t. It’s going to do quite the opposite. Having a sugar roller coaster, and excessive protein is going to make your dog aggressive. So if you were to look at a whole piece of meat, that whole piece of meat is at best 20 percent protein —

Mark: Exactly. A whole chicken is like 22 percent.

Rowan: Yeah. So if you gave it a raw bloody steak from a grass fed cow, it will be at most 22 percent protein. And there will be a load of healthy fats in there. There’ll be a load of CLA, a load of anti inflammatory fats, and vitamins and minerals.

Mark: So why the hell would they want to increase the protein level in highly processed dog food?

Rowan: Well one, because people seem to associate protein with quality.

Two, when they use these synthetic proteins, they actually are using them as a bit of a glue, a bit of a binder to bring all the kibble together.

Mark: Yeah.

Rowan: And three, they are a lot cheaper.

Mark: So that’s it, isn’t it? That’s absolutely right. It has to be in there because it has to bind the thing. You need things to bind the food together.

Now, if I want to say it’s gluten free, I have to replace that with something not agreeing with something, and it’s going to be protein and that is going to be pea protein, because now I can say it is grain-free.

Rowan: Yep.

Mark: But not sugar-free. Because it’s basically saying…

And this is what we’re going up against. So when you put your dog on kibble, it has to be bound by something. Something has to bind that together. We won’t even talk about the process which you have on previous podcasts,

But that is what is then kicking your body into this whole overdrive, using the MTO, creating cells crazy. And the body since, never again has time just to chill, relax, and repair, which is what it needs to do. Because if it’s…

Rowan: OK. Two slightly different things here, just to clarify that.

Yes, it’s going to kick the MTO; yes, it’s going to kick cell replication. Yes, because of the insulin. One, it’s going to create pancreatitis, which we’ve talked about, because obviously it’s asking your pancreas to produce loads of insulin to try and moderate this roller coaster. And in fact, just as a side note, I was trying to explain this to a patient only this morning…

Mark: Were they eating dog food?

Rowan: Do you know? I wish I could. I mean the results would become sistent, and anybody who goes, I don’t know what to eat, you go — here you go Bella and Duke.

But it’s… It’s almost like whilst your in fat burning because you’ve got plenty of fats, then it’s almost like just being on a train. And as soon as you come out with fat burning and you start being exposed to insulin, that train becomes a roller coaster and the insulin is constantly trying to level that roller coaster out.

So whilst that’s happening, you get this insulin-like growth factor release which promotes growth, and growth is cell replication as opposed to cell cleaning. And whilst it’s doing cell replication, it’s not doing the homework and looking after all the bricks which are currently holding the house together. And that’s when we get this cancer risk. Because we’ve got inflammation, we’ve got unchecked growth, and we don’t have the ability to actually go around and check all the bricks in the existing house.

So I know probably you’re going to go onto something quite sexy now. But just to differentiate, having a meal full of sugar is one thing; having meals full of sugar consistently so the body never gets a break, is really bad.

Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Everything that they spoke about on the weekend — it just all relates. Because they were talking about the macronutrients now. The macronutrients — again, you’ll be able to help me with this — protein, carb, fat… Is any of those? Is that the three of them.

Rowan: It’s protein, carbs and fat. Those are our macronutrients as opposed to our micronutrients, which are basically vitamins and minerals. Sometimes people include water as a macronutrient.

Mark: Yeah, OK. That was the one who gets the fourth — water.

So here’s what I came away with. I came away that — I want Bella and Duke not to be a dog food company. I want to be Bella and Duke like, not just another one, but like, we’re here for the dogs. We’re here for —

Rowan: A health movement.

Mark: Yeah. Now we are. But we’re here to see if we can get as many dogs to 30 years. I mean…

Rowan: Yep.

That’s totally feasible.

Mark: Brilliant.

So, part of this was, and it’s funny because I get a bit of backlash because I think there was… There was a slide that I put up that said — in 1970, the average age of a dog was 19. And in 2017, the average age of a dog is 9.

Rowan: Wow.

Mark: From 19 to 9.

Rowan: Oh.

Mark: And obviously there was some backlash — oh, I’ve feed my dog food kibble, and he lived to 18.

I go, it doesn’t matter whether there’s one or two dogs get to 18. We’re not talking about one or two dogs here. We’re talking about the vast majority of dogs. That’s what your average comes from.

Rowan: Yeah.

Mark: Getting closer. My granddad’s smoked until he was 90. Does that make smoking alright?

He could have actually lived to a 110. He could have had a better health span.

Rowan: Bang on.

Mark: All this bullshit that goes on. Of course you can find examples. And that goes back to the data bias. You can look at data and if I take the average, you cannot deny the average had changed. Where is it coming from? Well, we’ve always discussed environmental but also nutrition. Massively, nutrition.

Rowan: Well, I think we’ll say environmental. Sorry to interrupt your flow, there, Mark.

One, I totally agree on all of that. I often get people say, but it’s good for you.

It’s like — you’ve got diabetes, you’ve had a stroke, you’ve got a heart valve replacement and you’re 8 stone overweight and you’re telling me you eat healthily. Please.

This is like taking advice from a bankrupt financial adviser. It’s like, you have to face the facts. I’m not judging it, but let’s face facts. Let’s face facts because then we can act on it. If you’re coming to me and you’re 10 stone overweight and you’re saying I just can’t wait. It’s been a struggle. It’s because what you’re doing is currently not working

Mark: And what you’ve been told by the vast majority of media out there ain’t working either.

Rowan: No. And it’s not because…

I will see people week on week shed weight, improve the cholesterol and come off the diabetes meds, and all autoimmune diseases go away. We’ve not had a single person not succeed in three, four years, by using nutrition as the biggest part of the jigsaw and treating the underlying factors. Not a single one with the exception of one guy who had the most hideous tropical parasite, which we won’t talk about on air.

Mark: OK.

Rowan: Because he had to go to the hospital.

Mark: I’ve probably had it. [laughs]

Rowan: Are you like the uncle in Ripping Yarns that goes around collecting all the kind of…

Mark: When I was posted in the Northeast. You know? It’s just — if you’re going to catch it, you’re going to catch it.

Rowan: Well, that’s not tropical, Mark. Most of [inaudible] — wouldn’t live there.

Anyway. So. I totally agree with you. Just because somebody manages to survive on kibble makes them a genetic outlier. And it always makes me question — wow. It’s like my ex-mother-in-law’s cat lived to 22 despite the fact she was smoking 60 a day.

Mark: The cat was?

Rowan: Now. Part of me wonders was the cat accidentally mummified and was it still alive [laughs] because whenever I walked in there, my skin was like… I couldn’t move.

But I kept thinking — wow, how long would that cat lived if it wasn’t constantly in a nightclub environment?

Mark: Well, there’s that guy in the day who’s the dairy farmer — and this is going to feed into what I was going to…

Rowan: Great story.

Mark: He had a 30 year old cat. He fed milk in the morning, but it wasn’t normal milk. It was raw milk straight from the cow. So obviously it was for the high fats, which we’ve discussed — high fats helps longevity.

And at one point I think he fed it three days a week. He fed it what should be fed, but he fed it three days a week, that amount of food.

So when I was speaking to Rodney, we were chatting about fasting and that. We have covered this a bit before. But also, it was interesting, we were talking about — they’ve done studies where ketosis works up to a 120 days. After that, they’ve seen no real benefit of staying in ketosis, after that period of time.

Rowan: Yeah…

Mark: So… You know… That’s what he said. Whether that was based in dollars, I don’t know.

But what he had said is — it’s definitely worth dogs fasting. And definitely getting a higher fat diet.

So here’s what I’m thinking. This is like a kind of opening up to the world. Because —

Rowan: Share it. Mark. Share it. I’m excited.

Mark: I think [inaudible] — competition trend copies it, it’s great. The whole dog world’s improving.

So my plan now is to create a meal plan for dogs that, say, 9 to 10 months of the year they, then one of our quality meals, but then for two months of the year we put them on one of our high fat meal plans, with fasting, with a view of getting those dogs bodies to heal anything they possibly can.

Because when I spoke to him about my dog, I said — oh, my dog’s going slightly blind and deaf. And I said — would fasting help?

And he went — oh, you wouldn’t believe. He says — even fasting can help regenerate those parts of the bodies. As long as it’s not past a certain stage.

Rowan: Yep.

Mark: There are some things it can’t. But the body just knows when it starts going into repair mode it goes — oh, that bit of cells aren’t right; let’s replace it with this one here, which is right and recreates, and that’s what it does.

Rowan: OK. There’s a couple of qualifications we need on this. And I love where you’re going on it and I really love the fact that, as a dog food company, we are focusing more on dog health than just selling more meals. Because ultimately if we’re getting dogs to fast, they’re eating less. So our turnover goes down and I’m all for that because we’re primarily about healing dogs, not selling food.

So I love that first of all. Secondly, getting dogs to fast. He’s only going to work if we get them to be able to come in and out of ketosis first. Otherwise they just have a massive blood sugar crash which can be really, really stressful.

You see this with humans as well. They say — oh, I tried not to eat for a certain amount of time.

Well, whilst they’re on the blood sugar roller coaster as opposed to on the fat train, that’s really difficult.

And also in terms of ketosis, I think ketosis is gray. I also think cyclical ketosis is a lot more sustainable. And by that I mean flicking out maybe once or twice a week depending on the health issues and on the activity level.

Mark: So when you’re saying then is as long as they’re on our meals for period of time — because our meals will get them off that glucose.

Rowan: Yep. Totally.

Mark: So let’s say they’re on our meals, and we go — you don’t go in ketosis; you don’t go on the fat part of our diet for at least, say, six months. Whatever figure we agree is the right one.

And then seventh and eighth month you go into that… But we’re still supporting the dog, because they’re still getting the calorific. But they’re getting it in the form of high quality fats.

Rowan: Yes.

Mark: And I’ve got some ideas for that as well, which I’ll come back to you off line.

Rowan: OK.

Mark: So yeah. So that’s one of the thoughts I had.

Now, we’re not saying to necessarily reduce the meals. What we’re also saying we’ll push that amount of food into a shorter period of time.

Rowan: Yes. Because that will squash the insulin window. Now people will say — well, hang on, why would you be producing insulin? For those people who have been listening and going — why would you actually have insulin for a high fat, lower protein meal necessarily?

Well, sometimes you can convert protein into sugar. And this is why, for instance, I see a lot of patients, human patients not succeed with ketosis because they think it’s like what I have lovingly called the “fatkins” diet. Eat as much fat as you like as long as you’re having a shed load of protein, regardless of the quality. When actually, you need a load of fat and minimal protein. And some of the athletes I look after are so conditioned to think about, I need protein, I need protein, I need protein for repair and growth, and it’s like — no, actually you need fat.

Mark: Which is no surprise because you see these protein drinks everywhere. Protein, protein, protein, protein…

Rowan: 9 times out of 10, if somebody is not succeeding and they’ve got no sugar in their diet, it’s because they’re eating too much protein. And the body is constantly converting it from glutamine into glucose.

Mark: It’s an amazing thing really, the body, when you think about it. It’s just…

Rowan: But when you do think about it, we’ve managed to evolve over hundreds of millions of years and survived without access to food outlets, survived through really hard times with no Waitrose, with no frozen delivery, with no freezers, with non of that.

We’ve gone for times properly months on occasion without eating. That is why we can, as long as we’ve got water and a bit of salt, that’s why we store fat. We store fat to act as our fuel source to act as insulation and to protect our internal organs.

Mark: Well yeah, if you take a bear, that’s exactly what they do; they hibernate. They just live [inaudible]

Rowan: And this is great. And what do bears do in the winter? They mix high fat — or rather in the summer — they mix high fat salmon with high sugar berries and they explode in body fat.

So — let’s recap on this because we’ve kind of jumped around on a couple of really exciting themes. One is maintaining steady insulin. That’s by going for a higher fat diet, which links perfectly with what we’ve been discussing about pancreatitis. Avoiding it in the first place would be avoiding inflammatory foods and too many starches and having to overproduce insulin or inflammatory fats. So a higher fat diet of the right fats also deals with the epilepsy thing we talked about.

Mark: Yeah.

Rowan: And I want to bookmark that about CBD oil at some point, please.

Mark: Yeah.

Rowan: Some very exciting research have been looking at that.

And prolonging — for certain months of the year — prolonging fasting periods between the meals without necessarily restricting calories. So you could be having the same amount of calories across three to four meals in the week and you get the cellular regeneration.

Mark: Which is the key here. Which is absolutely key.

Rowan: And that process is called, I want to call it autophagy, but it’s actually called autophagy and it means eating yourself. And what happens is the body goes — hey, we’ve got no food in the cupboard, let’s go and have a look around — and he goes and looks and he gets all the little amino acids out the cells and it ties them up, and it…

You know about this, there’s some energy plants in our cells called Mitochondria. You have between 2 and 8,000, depending on how active those cells need to be. The heart cells have got more, the little finger cells, less.

And what happens is it goes around and it kind of regenerates all the power plants and goes — oh look, there’s a lot of rubbish in that.

Whereas if we’re constantly eating sugar, we never get that time to do that.

Mark: Brilliant.

I think we’ve covered tons. I mean, there was other stuff — a behaviorist, brilliant — but loads of stuff from him.

And yeah, just hooking up with like-minded people was brilliant. Really, really was good. I mean, even things like meditating with your dog. They covered it all.

Rowan: Do you know this crazy idea which came to me after my morning meditation. I did some holosync today and I like to do it with the infrared light. Kizmat came and joined me and just lay on the crook of my chest and I thought — wouldn’t it be great to set up some bio hacking health retreats, maybe in Scotland for owners and their dogs to come to, where we get them all doing cyclical keto, show them how to eat, doing the raw for the dogs — similar thing, but obviously cooked for humans, putting in some supplements, getting everybody doing infrared saunas.

Mark: But not the dogs.

Rowan: Well you do infrared sauna for a dog. Because low heat.

Mark: OK, yeah. Infrared.

Rowan: Yeah. It’s basically, the infrared sauna is super-low heat.

Mark: But definitely infrared light, because dogs don’t sweat. They pant.

Rowan: Yeah.

Mark: So don’t take that as putting your dog in the sauna. [laughs]

Rowan: Oh god no.

Mark: Brilliant. That’s cool.

The other exciting stuff is that hopefully today/tomorrow we should be able to add that treat.

Rowan: Oh. finally.

Mark: So there was a big, big uptake we have to do this week. So that’s exciting. There’s other exciting stuff going on which we’ll keep letting everybody know about. But again, oh, that’s brilliant.

Any questions of course get in touch with us if you want us to cover any topics.

Brilliant.

Well thanks. Rowan.

Rowan: Thank you, Mark. It’s good to see you continuing to look better and better.

Mark: Thank you very much. I’m on my species-specific human diet.

Great. So as always, we would love your feedback, your reviews; if you can give us a five star on the iTunes and all those kind of places that would be brilliant. Come and join us on Facebook. We’ve got a closed group as well where we talk about secret things.

Rowan: Secret things only for the inner circle.

Mark: Absolutely.

Rowan: Are you ready for the special mix. [laughs]

Mark: And yeah. Love to hear your review. So thank you very much for listening.

Rowan: Thank you. Thanks Mark. And see you again next week.

Mark: Ta-ra.

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