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Podcast 05 – Discussion On Raw Dog Feeding 80:10:10 & Data Bias

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Mark: Hi. it’s Mark from Bella and Duke. And I’m with lovely Rowan again, our FDN, you can google that if you want to find out what that means. And this is going to be like a free form. We’re gonna try different angle today. So, this making world for like four hours. So, I hope that you’re on a long walk today with your doggy. Hi Rowan!

Rowan: Mark! Good afternoon. How are you doing?

Mark: I’m doing very, very good. Just got some treats in there which we’ll be talking about a little bit later on.

Rowan: I’ve got a bit of a confession on those treats.

Mark:  What that? have you been eating in them?

Rowan: I did. I ate them myself. They are really good. Look! I thought the proof is in the pudding. And sorry, we’ve hijacked this chat with treats.

Mark: Already.

Rowan: but I thought you know barring the chicken ones I’m a little bit intolerant chicken, right.

Mark: I will bare that in mind for your Easter pressie

Rowan:  Yeah. thank you. But no Kismet demolished hers. And she looked most aggrieved. As she saw me reach into the bag, feed myself, reaching to the bag, feed her. She’s like…. this is a strange turn of events.

Mark: Yes. So, and she can speak, obviously, English which is really brilliant.

Rowan: No, she’s just said that with a pose and I know what it is about.

Mark: Okay. today it’s little bit of a rant but I also want to take a bit of a stance. Because I saw another article about the whole bacteria thing and why it is bad for animals…

Rowan:   Sorry Mark. What food contains bacteria?

Mark:  Yeah, no sh*t bat man. yeah. So anyway, I really want to talk a little bit about this thing called data bias and it’s an interesting concept. So, basically what data bias is if you’ve got 10 articles on a specific topic. if you are very much this way inclined then maybe you’ll ignore the ones that maybe contradict your beliefs. And with Bella & Duke , it’s very easy to get stuck on a route that you think this is the way you’ve got to do it or this way. And not question what you’re doing. And I think actually and I don’t know if you found this Rowan but I think things like the Facebook group etc. and our team it’s always good because we’re always getting asked questions we think we should go off and just double check that, tipple check that. And one of the ones that comes up quite often is this 80:10:10 and I don’t know how much research you have done on the 80:10:10 and we’ve looked at it and we’ve used it as part of what we’ve built Bella & Duke on. But actually, what research has actually been done that the 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% offal is absolutely spot-on and that’s what animals need. Because I often think like if you were a fellow and you were to use human food. it’s not bad idea here. And I said Rowan, right.

Rowan:  It would solve a lot of problems. The NHS bill go down.

Mark: So if I said to you Rowan right we are going to do a human meal. We’re going to make  human meal and you with all your experience Rowan and everything you know about nutrition and say right you had to the perfect meal. People don’t think about it that we do it. They don’t think, Oh! have I got enough omega-3 in there have I got enough carbohydrates. Have I got enough fat in there? Is there enough protein? You just sit down eat your dinner.

Rowan: Well, this is really interesting, and you’ve asked about 10 questions in about 10 sentences. So, let’s break it down a little bit. Data bias, yes, I agree. And you know I agree because I’m very, if you are gonna use the word, guilty. I feel guilty remotely about it. I do it quite often myself. You know if somebody says this can’t be done. I will actually Google and ask Google and research and speak to people until I find somebody who says yes it can. So, that in itself is a selective data bias. So, let me put my hand up for that. But yes, of course, inevitably and that’s why you’ve got double-blind studies in research to stop scientists, you know inadvertently having data bias to try and promote the outcome they’re looking for. You know we can go to Schrodinger’s cat. it could be super philosophical about it. The point you’re making which is we should question everything is for me the most important. That’s the critical part of this. Because as soon as we, you, me or any of us, assume an expert status we become less receptive to new knowledge. And then we just repeat the same old dogma without learning and growing which is the whole point. So, I always look at this like a weather report, it’s correct right now. So, if it’s raining, we’re wearing a coat and we’ve got an umbrella. If we get new information and it’s gonna be sunny. Well, we’re going to change. And that’s the beauty of being a relatively small growing accessible company. Is that as new science coming in and improves. Well, so, can we approve it. It’s not like we’ve said what we are putting out is irrefutable, its dogmatic, it’s the word of law. What we’re saying is we’ve looked at everything. This looks like the thing that’s working the best clinically and practically and everybody’s getting results on it. If something better comes along, we’ll do that.

Mark: So that I hear even there are people say then for example I fed my dogs dry kibble their whole life and they’re fine. they’re running around. I’d like to relate it back to something like you know, somebody is hearing people say, oh my grandfather smoking for life and live until he’s 96. Does that make smoking okay? But the challenge I guess if we can’t, if someone dies of lung cancer who smoked their whole life. You still can’t say it was a cigarette smoke that absolutely 100% did that. All we can say is from the research that’s been done, there’s a bloody good chance that there was the smoking that caused the lung cancer that caused the death.

Rowan: Yeah, I mean this is almost like a bit of a spurious cul-de-sac when people say this to me I see human patients. And they come to me and say, I’ve been eating gluten my whole life and I’ve been fine. And my reply is well you’ve been fine up until now because you’ve finally broken the Machine with it. It’s like as you say this argument when people say well they smoked his whole life and he died. Well not really because he died. You know and that you could then say well I kept crossing the road blindfold and I was fine until the hundredth time. Its statistics, its likelihood, it’s making informed decisions. And if you’d be that narrow-minded and that if you will obtuse then really, you’re wasting your time. You want a receptive audience of people who want to turn the dogs.

Mark: So, let’s say it because what we’re up against is an industry of row feeders and that’s all the brands are there. One of the challenges you have is you don’t make money of healthy animals. I mean who makes many of healthy animals. The pet Guardian because then I haven’t spent it. So, who’s going to fund research into proving what makes the help the animal. And that takes me back also to the point that the way our brains work is there it’s always in fight or flight. So, we’re still care people really and we’ve got all this information coming out. Let’s walk through the jungle expect something jump out and either its food.  And we know that our brains are geared towards seeing danger. So, newspapers what do they sell. They sell danger because it knows that catches your attention. How many articles have you actually seen yourself that you’re feeling is great in the newspapers?

Rowan: Well okay once again you’ve wrapped up about 17 degrees. I’m just trying to remember them all in my big square head. We’re not always in fight-or-flight. So, first of all that’s my whole point I disagree with you on that  And being pet owners that’s one of the beauty of it. We can either be in sympathetic or parasympathetic. And parasympathetic is rest in repair and when you’re spending time with your animal and you’re out walking one of the reasons that pet owners are the we guesstimate live longer lives is that they don’t spend as much time in fight or flight. We spend more time in rest and repair relaxed because they’ve got a pet there which is very pleasant.

Mark: There’s always when they walk in their dog that I’m going to get that because I have to get the with.

Rowan: Yeah and you next point about newspapers. Yes, funny enough I can’t remember who this was but it was some kind of motivational speaker said that what he was going to do was design an app you could actually select how much bad news. The ratio of bad news you were adept with or you were able to cope with that day. But on that note if you look at any kind of motivational speakers or Business Accelerator courses or whichever all of them say stop watching the news. There isn’t a single one of them that says just watch the news for 10 minutes. All of them say stop watching the news.

Mark: There’s never really going to be a huge amount of positive articles about raw feeding because who’s going to do this research into it. Who’s gonna pay for that research because the truth being is if the government really took our health were out in the UK right now really seriously they would ban alcohol, they would have banned sugars and they would ban cigarettes like tomorrow. Because then you fix the NHS for a lot of these problems. So, what’s the likelihood of them going pet food has to be to an unbelievable standard because it was a moment.

Rowan: Large industries are not having zero motivational factors to put research into this the healthy pets. You correct I totally agree with you. Pet Guardians are the only warning benefit. From pet Guardians and in fact people like Bella and Duke who will feed the pets benefit in longer lived healthier pets and people who sell pets accessories. But you know that’s not the big moneymakers. You know the big money makers are basically people who can afford to fund the research and they are ginormous kibble manufacturers. Simply because the cost of product is So, cheap and they are So, big and the So, prevalent. And pharmaceuticals, now independently govern research they’ve got 73 thousand other topics to look at before they look at what’s the optimum ratios to feed a pet.

Mark:  So, if someone puts in an ingredient that has the nutrition in it. Does that mean it’s good but does that mean actually no? Because a bathe is still based on the quality of where that nutrition’s come from.

Rowan: Well when you say nutrition, are we talking about macros or vitamins and minerals?

Mark: Both.

Rowan: Okay well the answer to that unequivocally is both care. So, for somebody to say okay well it’s protein, it’s 80 percent or whichever. The macros are important but with a lot of wiggle room based on estimates and we can drill down on that. But the quality is at least as important So, for instance if we were looking at hey it’s got the wrong. I would rather give for instance give my dog the incorrect macro ratio but knowing that there were all quality ingredients rather than get the correct macros. And they’d be from you know fish pulled out a toxic streams and seas.

Mark: Okay So, that takes me back to that point that I made earlier on which was probably of 10 points. If you’re a human being sitting on a table what would be the perfect meal? Well one you can answer that question because as you’ve said on other podcasts unless you know where that human being is on their own that what you call it the road map.

Rowan: Offensive journey.

Mark: Health journey and it’s the same with dogs. A dog is born on two raw and how good quality foods is going to be in a completely different place to a dog that’s gone on to. And I’m not going to miss but when it’s cheap high processed.

Rowan: Yeah but there’s loads of different points on this. And I think we need to be quite a citrus. If we’re going to be not critical but if we’re going to be the same what we consider to be the voice of reason albeit just in a relatively uneducated discussion between two adults. The 80:10:10 has been repeated So, many times. And at best it’s a guesstimate it’s not an extensively researched ratio. It’s a guesstimate based on intelligent guess, or intuition or analysis of what dogs would eat in the wild. Now the reality is as humans for instance and my human patient would never analyzed their macros to that degree even the competitive and professional athletes I look after would not look at it to that percentage. And even then, they would vary because it depends whether on in the health journey. It depends where they are in their training schedule, it depends on what access to food they’ve got. And with dogs there are a lot more variables. Let’s not lose sight that even within Bella and Duke. If we were to drill down, does probably out of 2000 people if we were to do a head count was probably over a hundred different breeds.

Mark: Oh easily, absolutely.

Rowan:  So, let’s just say there’s a hundred different breeds in the Bella and Duke pack there’s probably three four hundred and there’s been an explosion of dog breeds. In the last ten years with poodles coming into the mix quite often. Now what we would like to think is all of these breeds were becoming more resilient to disease because we were actually choosing stronger traits as opposed to actually narrowing the genetic pool and making problems more prevalent. But you’re not telling me that a chihuahua is gonna have exactly the same macro needs as Spanish Olano, Bulldogs that’s working on a farm, chasing and herding semi wild cattle somewhere up in the Pyrenees.

Mark: Well absolutely I mean Dalmatians is a good example of a breed that can’t have too much awful. You know So, there’s already examples of dogs being affected by it. But your point being it when I dunk in the wild just getting a carcass it would never go oh let’s not eat the heart because I’ve had too much off what had awful yesterday as well but stated. Yeah, it’s not going to happen. And even if you took your athletes if you took in genomes and all that kind of stuff and epigenetic there’s so much bairams in it because it quite often. So, I just off the point. Quite often I get well-meaning customers calling is up worried about their dog oh I hate. And I’m like at the end of day as long as your dog is getting enough calories if they’re in the growth stage or the maintenance stage that’s the important thing is. It’s not you know if you just think of yourself as a human being you do not go into it yourself in the same detailed as we talking about a ballet that you put on pet dog. It’s way better fed than moon joint with humans.

Rowan: Yes, yes and yes. There are a couple of different things going floating about and I’m just trying to tease them out. And I think firstly dogs obviously differ to humans. In that dogs are merely entirely carnivorous. So, there is more if you will room for maneuver within a human diet between carbohydrate consumption than would be healthy within a dog. However, on the dog side of things, we know that dogs are experts at survival. Hence the here, right. So, doctor experts at survival, they’re incredible scavengers which is why they managed and actually paired up with man and we evolved together. Because one plus one was three that helped us hunt down animals. We shared the bones with them, sing round the campfire. Dogs cannot just survive but thrive on a variety of diets. So, when we look at the 80:10:10 we’re looking at what we perceive is the optimal based on what they would have they evolved doing. But that was when they were in the wild. They’re now a lot of them don’t work or aren’t as active as that .and now know that if we add in some antioxidants in the form of vegetables which they would have never hunted down then they’re going to be cancer protective. And there’s a variety of breeds where am i coming to with all of this. Basically, as long as following the guidelines and you’re ensuring that these you getting access to good quality ingredients and you’re feeding them raw this dog is going to be in way better position than most humans and most animals in the history of their species.

Mark: Absolutely and you brought up the cancer the antioxidants. And I think big bold statements that you see are on the internet and I don’t know if that you’re not but you know you go off them is you know fifty years ago one in 100 dogs got cancer. Now that the statistics are something like 66 in 100 dogs. 66 percent dogs getting cancer. And for me I’m like even if we can’t say it’s one particular brand or one particular ingredients what we can say is they’ve gone from eating raw to eating off the table to where now they got highly produced dog food. And it’s at that point between around the house in the garden, scavenging, getting wherever this, you have to dinner to where we commercialized it after World War One, World War two tinned food dry kibble. That period is when there’s have been a massive increase in cancer but it’s not just dogs course humans are the same as well. So, highly processed food, So, I don’t care what arguments people give me it says and this is where might be the bias but I’m like ideas biases beacuse it’s bigger I’ve kept an open mind and I’m like. What other information these big brands pump out there. I go to what end is that truly been done with a white hat. I’m gonna go and get your results not to benefit our bottom line .and if I was one of the big companies I would be worried as well because you see it now with the snap companies that they’re the take away companies leading the fast-food companies they’re all realizing they can no longer pump, lots of sugar and lots of this into to the mainstream food. Because now going to get hit, because people are waking up to it, because the NHS is creaking at site. And the one thing I always think about when I see these daft articles and it’s even worse at the fact that newspapers just pump them out there without even having any you know oh by the way we ask this person who has a raw feeding and research and stuff like that. That you know it’s gonna happen until such point there’s enough people out there going you know what I no longer want to fit to give that specific that diet kibble that I’ve been recommended. And they start pushing back and that’s really the message. I think what I want with Bella and duke always be Miss. Get the message out there whether you buy you offers or not. I don’t mind as long as we get dogs off processed food. Just in the same way I’m always fighting with my kids to get them off not in burgers because it’s just not good for their bodies.

Rowan: There’s another element that I think is missing from this discussion which is a key absolutely essential component in both humans and in dogs. And is not just about being processed food or beer it goes hand in hand with it and that is the introduction of cereals. Now of course by definition cereals need to be processed because they can’t be eaten fresh. Because they’re So, toxic to our digestive system. So, they need to be highly processed whether that’s milled and ground, or toasted, or soaked, or hold or all of the above. Never in the evolution of man did we walk along when we’re foraging for berries, nuts, hunting elk go oh let’s just eat that ear of wheat. Because we didn’t. I mean really it makes me wonder what those cave people were smoking to actually go… You know what I’ve had this bringing idea oak come around if we get that spiky thing there you know the thing that always makes you cough and gives you really funny stomach. If we actually shell it, peel it, grind it, toast it then mix it with some water we might be able to eat it. I mean it’s almost like you go. Or we not better off just wanting an elk?

Mark: Popcorn.

Rowan: Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Kellogg a very religious person and this is a true story. Google it, invented Kellogg’s cornflakes because what he believed the scourge of society was libido. And he knew that cornflakes and cereals instead of meats and eggs would actually lower everybody’s hormone levels. So, that was why it was introduced. Yes, processed food but actually the introduction of cereals has seen cancer rates, autism, epilepsy, rheumatoid arthritis, go through the roof in humans and cancer rates in dogs with them. It’s cheap, it’s toxic and there’s no way you’re gonna get any kind of cereal company to run research against their own product. I think we need to tie that up.  So, basically let’s just recap on the 80:10:10 it’s a really good point. We should be asking ourselves questions about that and everything else we do it you to avoid repeating Dogma even if it’s well-meaning Dogma we need to challenge everything. 80:10:10 based on what we believe a dog would have evolved eating, fits very much with the dog’s ability to digest it provides in a fiber, the get bone in there, the get mineral content, the get vitamins and the get this basically insoluble and soluble animal fiber which keeps their digestive tract working all good. We are then adding in some vegetables for the gut microbiome. If these macros vary from time to time I would be super relaxed about that. As we’ve seen even with dogs raised on super pro-inflammatory toxic kibble they can survive on it. But what we’re looking at here is a totally different quality of nutrients and that for me is the key component. So, I’m sure that if you really wanted to and I wouldn’t recommend this but you could feed your dog on quality protein and more carbohydrate. A lot which it wouldn’t be able to digest and we would probably create some other illnesses but he wouldn’t be as bad as if he fed them kibble. So, as long as you stick near to the 80:10:10 and use that as the road on which you drive and if you swerve off it occasionally that’s fine. You better off swerving towards more meats or more protein than more carbohydrate. But these dogs if we look after them and we’re keeping them away from toxins very difficult if you live in the city they should have disease-free lives. That’s a big statement but I really believe that if you were to take a puppy, raise it away from car fumes, give it loads of love and feed it a toxin free food raw or be a mark full of bacteria. Mark: Well I think there’s other only food whole prey and all this again. You know it’s right, wrong it’s not it’s just part of something, it’s great no. But it’s a whole prey is still better than dry kibble but that’s gonna be everything like back to you guys. I mean interesting we restart a testing some venison not me Percy but we’re just getting being getting it and one of the things we freeze it down for six weeks minimum. Because that’s to kill off any other pathogens and all that kind of stuff in there. So, yeah that’s one things but you wouldn’t get that if you kill an animal out there and they just ease it. So, we’re actually being overprotective but you know if a dog’s bodies work and writes the acid level in the stomach should be the right level that it kills all the pathogens. So, raw feeds dogs that have been on a raw fed for a while had a good day. It will naturally kill a lot more just in the stomach before even gets inside the intestinal tract and all the rest of it. Am I right?

Rowan: Yeah, I mean the whole intestinal tract is designed to deal with raw food. Because dogs just basically they didn’t have little camping stoves in the wild. That’d be really cute. If you had like a Little Wolf Pack you had a really small like little Calla gosh thing and one who said actually no. There’s no way I’m getting into that antelope you know they carry diseases. And they get out I was a little frying pan and to do that, yeah not.

Mark:  He brought the most. He doesn’t bring the most…. [unclear 30:14].

Rowan: What do you mean we have no Tabasco?

Mark: Health issues I think which are out there because they’re just not eating the right things. I think are eliminated because the body’s working the way it’s meant to work.

Rowan: Yeah if you feed a dog kibble all the time it will kill each stomach acid. So, it will be more likely to suffer from those things. So, if you’ve done two dogs get an almost fed raw from the start, one was thread kibble and then they were to go into the wild and one was going to eat say a rabbit had caught, the other one eats a rabbit it’s caught. The one with kibble which has got intestinal permeability and has probably got some stomach acid issues because of all the carbohydrates been eating is the one that’s going to have the issue. So, when people talk about ooh roars bad for your dog. No, it’s not. Feeding kibble actually kills your dog and makes it in a unable to dent food it’s evolved to be.

Mark:   Yeah, it’s good point .so yeah, I think absolutely that’s a good example of that exactly what happens with dogs when we go out there. This is it and they psyche you see that was again with humans always good, always getting I always get it cool this time yet or what will you think.  What you mean this bean [unclear31:36] of it and see how much bit mundane all these are the things which we could go on for ages. You know you see it all the time the same people will get ill. And you just could wear if you just looked at the diet possibly. You’d be able to remedy a lot of these issues that happened.

Rowan: Oh, you know Mark, I totally agree with this. When it comes to looking after my patients getting them to buy into the diet is key. I’d say in one case out of ten it’s not diet related.

Mark: That’s one a genetic or whatever reason.

Rowan: Yeah it might be something really bizarre like for instance I was looking after some oil execs they were based out in West Africa and that all got exposure to petrochemicals. And So, there’s a massive environmental toxin exposure and the same parasite.

Mark:  So, just I guess to pull it all together. There will be negative stuff about raw feeding out there and it’s mainly going to be about bacteria because that’s all the only thing that these high process companies can talk about. You’re not always going to get the diet absolutely right for you dog but your dog doesn’t gonna die because of it. Because if the run raw they’re gonna get 99% of what they need most of the time. Which is a hell of a lot more and if they’re on a dry kibble. And if a dog is fed correctly or unnaturally be healthier because then the stomach acids everything else would be able to fight off all the bacteria and everything that it was designed to do.

Rowan: I agree with that if you’re feeding your dog raw, quality raw regardless of the brand for groceries Bella and Duke or whoever it is, if it’s good quality source raw ingredients or setting your dog up for health success.

Mark: Bingo.

Rowan: That is, it in my opinion. Now if we find some additional data we will change. If you vary the macros that will make very little difference. The key parts are really avoiding toxin exposure and toxin exposure is grains, it’s processed dairies, there is all of these fillers, all of these things which are nonfoods it’s like giving your dog toxic sawdust. And your dog’s going to create an inflammatory response to. Now an inflammatory response in the dog’s stomach it’s almost like if you burn your hand that’s inflammation. If you’re doing that every day to the inside of your dog’s stomach with kibble what do you think is gonna happen to its digestive tract. So, set yourself up for health success. Feeding dog raw it doesn’t really matter if it’s raw pet fry diet from what we’ve seen So, far. It doesn’t really matter if it’s 80:10:10. It wouldn’t matter if they never ate a vegetable in their life. But we suspect and we believe that they’re much more likely to actually have protection from cancer if they’re getting exposed to with the antioxidants. And then people who say well you know actually dogs didn’t used to have cancer and they didn’t used to get. They didn’t agree but we live in a much more polluted society. So, setting is certain you dog up for health success by giving it this is your extra antioxidants are only gonna work with your dog rather than a gangster.

Mark: Okay So, we’re thanks.  Hopefully you’ve got a lot out of this podcast I know I have. Thanks for your time again.

Rowan:  Thank you Mark. Thank you.

Rowan: My pleasure and as always love your feedback. And if you can review on the podcast that’ll be great because that helps other people find this. Join our Facebook group, any questions on there one is discussed in future episodes, please put them there. And we’ll keep you up to date with all the latest things coming from Bella and Duke. Love to you all.

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